Talk:Khan Noonien Singh
I wonder that noone's pointed out that "Singh" is the traditional shared name of almost all Sikh men (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sikh#Sikh_Names). --207.134.56.158 14:37, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC) :Good call. In the non-canon Eugenic Wars books, Khan is explicitly identified as a Sikh. He also speaks Punjabi, it appears. ::Actually, he's identified as a Sikh in Space Seed. Greg Cox's Eugenics Wars novels just explain niggling little details like why Khan, a Sikh, is wandering around with short hair, and all clean-shaven. IanWatson 22:33, 27 Jul 2005 (UTC) :::I believe Space Seed calls him a Sikh, but he does not wear any of the traditional Sikh ojbects (the turban, bracelet, and dagger). Sikhism is basically an egalitarian belief system not compatible with being an elitist megalomaniac superhuman, .--GreatBear 06:53, 9 Jan 2006 (UTC) :*In Marla McGivers' painting of Khan, he is wearing a turban. Presumably that is from contemporary photos of him. :*I suspect the Botany Bay launched with little time for niceties. So he may not have had an opportunity to take things with him like a turban or dagger. :*The episode does not definitively identify him as a "Sikh". Marla McGivers says upon seeing Khan that he is "probably a Sikh", based only on his appearance. Since a Sikh is - of course - a religious rather than ethnic or national affiliation, I think that shows wishful thinking on her part. Especially as she then gushes about what wonderful warriors they were, and wouldn't it be wonderful if he was one, and my is it getting hot in here? At least, if you read between the lines :) :*As to the name "Singh", it dates back to at least the 8th Century; Sikhism did not exist until the late 16th to early 17th Centuries. :*One of the Sikh articles of faith is to have uncut hair. Khan had long, but not uncut, hair and no beard. However, not all Sikhs today wear turbans or grow long hair, so that's just a data point. :*Bottom line: we have no real proof he is - or is not - a Sikh. Aholland 16:49, 10 February 2006 (UTC) :::All good points. Does this amount to an objection to the line "Khan's background was suspected to be Sikh"? or should it be limited to include "Indian"? --Aurelius Kirk 16:56, 10 February 2006 (UTC) ::::No objection. It was suspected by McGivers, even if on the flimsiest of evidence. So it is a true statement without definitively saying he was a Sikh. I think it straddles the point nicely. Aholland 17:01, 10 February 2006 (UTC) Major rewrite I noticed a bunch of little errors and deviation from canon. Fixing them was quickly creating an article that didn't read very well, so I ended up with a top-down rehab. I meant no disrespect to the previous contributors, their work was the foundation for my re-write. It was just easier for me to approach it this way, and it think it's an over-all improvement. All information is based on his appearances in Space Seed and Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan. I refer to his Sikh "background" rather than implying he embraced the Sikh culture. I don't think we can canonically establish McGivers was the wife he referred to in TWOK, so I just use his references to "my beloved wife" and "her", as he said. There were a number of factual errors, and errors resulting from many edits over time. I'll nominate this for Featured Article removal, after a little time has passed and nobody thinks my version deserves a total revert. --Aurelius Kirk 19:28, 17 January 2006 (UTC) Quotes in TWOK section The indented and italicized quotes: why are they here? I haven't seen anything like them on any other page. They are good quotes, but I don't think they belong where they are, in between text. If anything they belong in a quotes section. Any thoughts? Vash The Stampede 21:14, 23 January 2006 (UTC) :Personally, I think that if they add to the article/character, they are alright. Indented and italicized quotes are common in episode summaries, especially for log entries (in my The Naked Now summary, I placed 'Engage!' at the bottom). - Adm. Enzo Aquarius 21:21, 23 January 2006 (UTC) :Either that (move to quotes section), or we should find another way to format "inline quotes" (maybe even using a template if those are here to stay. Indented-and-italicized is already used for background info, it might be confusing to have other information formatted as such. -- Cid Highwind 21:22, 23 January 2006 (UTC) Year of Botany Bay Launch This is a very good article. I noticed, though, the launch of the Botany Bay was firmly stated at 1996. It could have been 1996, but all we know is that Khan's reign over a quarter of Earth ended in 1996. Whether it ended all at once or was whittled away over time is not known. So the launch could have been 1996 or could have been later. I suggest it be amended to "sometime during or after 1996", since he couldn't have left pre-1996. Aholland 16:25, 10 February 2006 (UTC) :I know there's some ambiquity on this issue, and I did my best to address it when I took that issue on. The paragraph starts with Khan escaping the wars in 1996, but the exact date of launch was left up in the air. My hope was to suggest what the episode implied, but didn't nail down. As it stands, I don't think Botany Bay's launch is firmly stated. But since a second pair of eyes feels differently, I'll scan through "Space Seed" to reconstruct my reasoning and try again. --Aurelius Kirk 16:48, 10 February 2006 (UTC) ::For clarity, when I said that 1996 was "firmly stated", I meant in the article, not the episode. The line is "Khan escaped the wars and their consequences in 1996, along with 84 followers who swore to live and die at his command." I may have overread the text to imply that the Botany Bay launched that year. But even if not, the escape - in whatever form - may or may not have been in 1996. We don't know and that's my only point. I would restate it as "Khan escaped the wars and their consequences sometime after late 1996, along with 84 followers who swore to live and die at his command." (But it is a minor flaw in an otherwise brilliant article.) Aholland 16:58, 10 February 2006 (UTC) :::Wow, after a second look, I'm not sure what the ambiguity is anymore! In TWOK, Khan says "...Never told you how the Enterprise picked up the Botany Bay, lost in space from the year 1996..." That pretty much puts the BB on it's way in 1996. If you have something that cancels this, remind me. --Aurelius Kirk 17:49, 10 February 2006 (UTC) ::::Wow, indeed. My apologies - no change is needed. (You might even consider highlighting the point!) My initial view that the article was well done has proven more correct than my own faulty memory. Aholland 18:36, 10 February 2006 (UTC) :::::No need to apologize, now we have that fact nailed down! You got me looking at the article again, and I've made little fixes throughout. The Botany Bay launch paragraph is slightly modified to reflect the TWOK quote, and I dropped the sentence regarding "Singh" as an indicator of Sikh-dom (based on your notes above). --Aurelius Kirk 19:03, 10 February 2006 (UTC) Jatt?? Someone just added to the article that "Khan's ethnic background was Jatt (most likely Sikh) from the northern region of India." Unless someone has something from a valid resource to back this up, it should be reverted to nothing more than speculation as to Sikh and nothing as to Jatt. Aholland 16:53, 3 April 2006 (UTC) :On second thought, I'll change it back and if someone has something to validate the introduction of Jatt please note it back here. Aholland 18:15, 3 April 2006 (UTC) ::In Lt. Marla McGivers's professional opinion, Khan was most likely a Sikh, she said so while she was aboard Botany Bay. As to whether you have to be a Jatt to be a Sikh? I dunno. Could use some research. -- Captain M.K.B. 03:10, 4 April 2006 (UTC) :::Please see the earlier discussions on this page, which showed that McGivers was engaging in pure speculation as to Khan being Sikh. As above, a Sikh is a religious affiliation that cannot be determined by appearance alone, and anyone can be one if they so choose. And Khan did not have any of the traditional 20th Century visual cues for potentially being a Sikh (long hair, beard, dagger, turban, etc.) Although it seems unnecessary to have examined this much further since "Jatt" wasn't mentioned by anyone, just so you know it is not necessary to be a Jatt (or Jat, depending on your preference) to be a Sikh, and not all Jatts are Sikhs (many are Hindu and Muslim, for example). But you are welcome to look into it further if you think that there is a valid resource that states that Khan was a Jatt. Aholland 04:08, 4 April 2006 (UTC) Random Curiosity So this has bothered me for some time. How on earth did Khan get that ST Movie-era necklace to wear? It is most certainly not from the original series. That's always bothered me... --Beyerku 21:00, 28 June 2006 (UTC)